Talk:Circular Cruises/Prog Rock

Bunny42:

Funny, when you mentioned John Anderson, my mind heard Ian Anderson. I like me some Jethro Tull. Never really thought about lyrics, though. I'm closer to that era than you are, once attended a Moody Blues concert, though I don't let that get around too much. I was drawn to performers whom I could tell were classically trained before they evolved into rock. The harmonies were progressive but they were there, despite the ubiquitous "life beat", suitable for flailing around and calling what you were doing dancing. Loved Yes.

Would you say that The Mamas and the Papas or Supertramp fall into this category? I've heard the term, but don't know how much it covers. I only really know individual groups, and not so many of those. I found Mama Cass to be heart-rendingly talented. I've actually forgotten the original version of Dream a Little Dream of Me. I only know her cover, now. They were less instrumental-oriented, so maybe not a good fit in this discussion. But Supertramp! At least the stuff from the early 70's. I kinda lost track after that.

-- 00:03, 19 June 2009 (BST)

Columbina:

I think of The Mamas and the Papas as writing basically well-done pop songs - definitely in the verse-chorus-bridge mode. Supertramp you could make a case for as prog rock in some ways I think.

By the by, I didn't even know their version of "Dream a Little Dream" was a cover until you said that. Doris Day? Frankie Laine? Really?

-- 03:27, 19 June 2009 (BST)

DanLyke:

I think of prog rock as a modernist style exploration music, in much the same vein as Charles Ives. Modernism was about breaking away from the strict illustrationist forms and saying 'how far can we push our materials?" and "how far can we push our understanding of shape?"

As such, there's a whole lot of modern art that's comprehensible only if you're familiar with things like the vagaries of the medium; if you like the big blue square and don't understand that it was done before you could buy that color in a tube and it was pushing the technological edge of pigment in ways that hadn't been done before, you're just a poser.

Lots of modern art collectors are posers, people who saw that knowledgeable people were impressed by something, and who glommed on to that impression without understanding why the technicians appreciated it.

Kansas is a perfect example, in one mood a lot of their stuff is unlistenable, in another I appreciate that they were trying to break free of some rhythm and tune conventions in ways that are trying to be cubist. Even as they maintained a horribly trite middle-America sense to their lyrics.

To Bunny's question, I think Supertramp had a good line playing themselves as prog rock, but they were really more a good pop group.

Nowadays much of the "we're not bound by the convention of previous forms" stuff has been played out, but there are still a number of musicians pushing the technical edge for its own sake. You could waste a few hours by putting "betcha can't play this" into YouTube's search box, which I think ends up with the modern equivalent.

-- 03:58, 19 June 2009 (BST)

Mel:

I never really liked Yes, to be quite honest (although I did like the art on their album covers!) until "Owner of a Lonely Heart" - which was really a pop song, more or less. I'm not sure I ever completely understood what "progressive rock" meant at all, but I always knew that I didn't much like those long improvisational pieces that were so popular in the 70s. I don't remember seeing a definite connection between those two things, though.

I don't think I can define "New Wave" very exactly, either, but I still have a pretty good idea what it is. I guess I would define it generally as the post-punk "second British invasion" of the early 80s - but I think of a lot of New Wave stuff as more pop than rock. (Or you could possibly make a case that it was all over the map, stylistically, which may be what makes it a bit hard to define. The Clash? definitely rock. Culture Club? sort of soul/pop. But I would still call both of them New Wave.)

Also, I was crazy about Supertramp back when, which may mean it mostly wasn't so much progressive. (On the other hand, I went through a big Styx/Kansas phase somewhere around the same time - along about the late 70s, this would be - and I would agree about Kansas having at least some claim to being progressive. But Kansas managed to break out of the box a bit without 15-minute guitar solos, which is at least part of the difference as far as I was concerned.)

-- 06:37, 19 June 2009 (BST)