Eccentric Flower talk:201109/Convergent Streams

ProfRobert:

I'm tempted just to hold my breath in fear that even if I say something encouraging, you'll want to push back against it. But I will try this much: Therapy does not create any reality -- real or false -- for one. It only gives you additional tools for looking at your reality. Looking at the moon through a telescope is no less real than looking at it with the naked eye; you only get a different perspective. And to be fair, you may like or not like the view the tool provides, and you may choose to use the tool or not. A competent therapist doesn't appropriate your personhood or staple rose-colored glasses to your head. You are still solely in charge of your life and of how you feel about it.

Now I will resume holding my breath.

-- 18:53, 22 September 2011 (BST)

Medley:

I agree with ProfRobert - although have only minimal direct experience on the matter. But I am curious about your take on, for lack of a better term, a zen or buddhist approach.

I am personally really taken with the notion that it is possible to observe a bad (or good) thing and to dispassionately also observe my own reaction to it - but not let that reaction own me or *be* all that I am.

Mind you - I do *not* do this nearly as much as I wish I did. But a good friend of mine has spent now several years doing meditative and related practices and has really sold me on the notion that badness in the world need not impose bad feelings in myself. And really, what good do those bad feelings do for anyone, anyway?

Again, I *fail* at implementing this, personally (and spent part of an afternoon this week sobbing in a bathroom, so you know.. take this for what it's worth) - but I have a whole ToDo list and a bunch of reading and links and podcasts related to *rummage rummage-what did I call it* "Develop a regular meditation practice" because I think it will help me cope with many things better.

-- 19:07, 22 September 2011 (BST)

Mrissa:

I also agree with Robert and Medley.

Also: you know how much work it is to constantly be trying to find upright? It's not that upright has gone away. It's not that you have discovered the underlying reality that there is no upright.

As someone who has not been able to take upright for granted for something like five years now, I know whereof I speak on this.

-- 02:51, 23 September 2011 (BST)

Columbina:

I was thinking of you when I wrote those sentences. I almost put in "(This is the part where Mrissa says 'amen.')"

-- 03:15, 23 September 2011 (BST)

Bunny42:

Having contemplated some form of "therapy" or other over the years, I have come up against the very real dilemma of not being able to trust anybody I have to pay to listen to me. I've been afraid that trying and failing would lead to never trying again. So now, I look at everything through rose-colored glasses and go my merry way, the best I can. I make my own happiness, through denial, through eschewing deep contemplation of ideas and questions that have no answers, so why bother with the questions. I suppose that means I hide under a bushel, but it seems to be working. I don't feel a life of "quiet desperation," but live constantly with fear of the unknown.

This is part of why I find your inner reflections so... brave, I guess, and so thought-provoking. It's tempting to say oh, get on with it. But you can't, and neither can I, if I spend much time analyzing. You have a gift for describing your soul that I greatly admire. Haven't tried it myself since I was about 16 years old. I decided it was too scary, and there aren't really any answers to the questions I would ask. All I could do, all any of us can do, if we're lucky, is come up with some inner philosophy for coping, and then move on. That's how I cope, but it makes me a very shallow person.

-- 11:52, 24 September 2011 (BST)

Bunny42:

Funny I should say this, since Sean is always accusing me of analyzing things into the ground. Perhaps my life as Little Mary Sunshine is just one what-if after another. I do have a habit of contemplating the worst-case scenario, then trying to deal with it in my mind, so that whatever actually transpires probably won't be nearly as bad, and I will have "dealt" with it. Maybe that's why I can't sleep.

-- 11:59, 24 September 2011 (BST)

ProfRobert:

@Bunny re. "not being able to trust anybody I have to pay to listen to me."

And yet, presumably, you trust your physician not to kill you, your lawyer not to lose your money, your accountant not to get you audited, your gardener not to plant weeds . . . need I go on? You hire professionals or experts all the time and trust them not to screw you over. Of course you can find a bad egg, but in general you trust the people you hire to do a good job for your. Why would a therapist be any different?

Indeed, I'd argue that paying the therapist is exactly what makes him/her trustworthy: Your friends and family inevitably have agendas with you -- need and expectations that you fill or, at your peril, not. A good therapist has no agenda with you other than getting paid (which, BTW, a big source of tension can be when to end therapy, because that is the *only* time where the therapist's self-interest might be implicated, but a) if they're good, they'll have more client requests than they have time to handle, and b) you run the same risks with anyone who bills by the hour or on a fee-for-service basis, so again, there's nothing unique to therapists here).

-- 07:23, 25 September 2011 (BST)

Bunny42:

Robert, that's a very good point. Maybe it comes down to being afraid to try, because of all the anecdotal bad apple stories. When you don't have much money, a failed experiment can be daunting. You can use word of mouth referrals, I suppose, but when it comes to analyzing what's in your head, everyone's different. It's so subjective. A bad lawn guy is fairly evident.

Bottom line, I guess I've never been desperate enough to attempt the search. The one time I sought help, about a year after my husband died, it turned out to be chemical, and about 18 months of it did the trick and put me back on track.

My brother had problems with anger management, so he went to someone. Says it's the best move he ever made. However, I'm not all that fond of the person he's become as a result of it: cynical, and apathetic. If he doesn't let stuff bother him, he doesn't get angry. I dunno, he just doesn't seem to care about anything, anymore. That's one way to cope. Is that the standard methodology, or did he just get a lemon for a therapist? As long as he's content... But that's what I mean about anecdotal evidence.

Most of what is keeping awake at night falls into the "this, too, shall pass" category. I can trace the causes to circumstances, and they are transitory. What I'd get from a therapist would probably be suggestions of different ways to cope with the tension. But I haven't exhausted all the physical ways, yet. You can be sure, however, that when and if the need arises, I will keep in mind what you've said.

-- 13:10, 25 September 2011 (BST)

ProfRobert:

Just to be clear, Bunny, I wasn't suggesting you *should* be in therapy; I was only addressing the "trust" point you made.

As for your brother, I think the appropriate litmus test is whether he is happier in his life and whether he manages his relationships better from his perspective than he did before.

-- 15:22, 26 September 2011 (BST)

Bunny42:

Oh, I knew that. But I'd never considered a therapist as just another form of professional. I appreciate your insight.

As for my brother, he thinks he's happier and better able to cope. I guess that's what counts. I wouldn't want to be that apathetic, myself. I've always figured that the highs are worth the lows. But he's happy. End of story.

-- 00:23, 27 September 2011 (BST)