Eccentric Flower:201009/Mouth Shut
From Eccentric Flower
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Mouth Shut
Contrary to what you might think, I do learn a little wisdom as I grow older. The reason you may not be aware of it, in terms of tempests generated here, is that around here "wisdom" mostly equates to "not shooting my mouth off on a given topic in the first place," so you never see the ones I suppress and you don't realize how much things have improved. (You may have noticed that the number of entries per month is on a long-term decreasing trend, though; the remainder of the equation is left as an exercise for the student.)
There are very few things I can say pertinent to a particular controversy in New York, and our general national psychosis revolving around the date September 11th and people of the Muslim faith, that would not cause me a fair bit of commotion I don't want.
You may think, well, wait, there's no chance of commotion here, we're all on the same side of this stupidity, right? But if you think that, you aren't casting your net broadly enough. This ties into a whole mess of national neuroses about how we treat "outsiders" and what it takes for those outsiders to become insiders, and eventually slides down into a swamp of economic, cultural and class issues and American immigration policy and the history of religious hegemony in America and who knows what-all else. Just to give you one relatively calm, tame example, there's one reader here who differs notably from the majority of the rest of us on border policy in this country, and at least one person here (me) who is critical of some aspects of American border policy at present but in agreement with it on other aspects, including some which would surprise you.
The point being, when you have a conversation that's going to turn over that many rocks, you're going to find some things under some of them you didn't want to see.
The other point being, I don't have the desire or the energy to have that sort of conversation right now at all. I can't stomach any kind of discussion of American politics (in the broadest possible sense of "politics") these days. It just is not energy well spent. I will end up muttering something darkly about a pox on all their houses and how all the politicians and most of the public can go piss up a rope, and we all know that's not constructive, so why expend the energy getting to a non-constructive dead end? Just take "I think pretty much everybody sucks" as read and leave me out. For now.
Which doesn't mean you can't talk amongst yourselves!
Here are two tidbits which I endorse. The first is an observation of my own:
Those of us who are not residents of New York City have absolutely no business weighing in with any opinion on the mosque controversy. Really. We have no business thumping any sort of drum in the matter. I don't care what side you're on. It is not our affair and our presence in the discussion is an unwelcome distraction (ask any New Yorker). Butt out.
The second is a quote from this excellent article, which you should go read:
The article goes on to lambaste the media for their complicity in this bigotry, but I tend to go softer on the media (in this sort of situation) because, by and large, the media are in the business of giving the people what they want, however flawed that may be. Ultimately our national media are a mirror; they may try to make politics on their own, Hearst-style, but if they don't find an audience that's looking for that particular product, they go out of business.
I have to be away for a few days. Don't break the furniture.
Bunny, immigration isn't my field of expertise, so this is (more than usually) just an uninformed impression I have. The problem seems to go like this: Draconian anti-immigration laws play well at the ballot box. Enforcing them as written, however, would require much $$$, and tax increases are poison at the ballot box. Economically, illegal aliens are wonderful for the business community both because they occupy menial jobs that legal immigrants and citizens won't take and because they can often be exploited for less than minimum wage, no social security, unemployment tax, etc. So the business community gives $$$ to politicians who nod and wink at the draconian anti-immigration laws, all the while devoting insufficient resources to enforce them. Contempt for the draconian laws in this area leads to contempt for the legitimate rules, and everything goes to hell. But as I say, that's just an impression I have, uninformed by any actual knowledge.
-- 06:13, 18 September 2010 (BST)
But, see, they aren't ANTI-immigration laws, they're immigration laws. Not many legals are actually refused, and if they are, it's for cause, like felony records or communicable diseases. Or, in some cases, quotas, although I don't know much about that aspect of it.
Point is, there have always been laws governing who and how. There just aren't enough law enforcement personnel to do the job, and, now that the problem has escalated, there never will be. Takes funding, and nobody wants to budget for it. But, damned right, talk a good new law and people will feel good about it. And re-elect you. Perception over reality, every time.
It's the same with gun laws. When Brady got shot, there was a rush to make a feel-good law, by golly. Never mind that there were already perfectly good laws on the books that even then were not being enforced, and for the same reasons.
I'm no expert. My opinions come from "the other side," I guess you could say, the side of the poor working schlub who has rules and regulations and laws to enforce, no money to do it with, and political bickering governing whether or not he SHOULD enforce them in the first place. It's a thankless job. The fact that illegal aliens come in all shapes and sizes, from criminals to hard-working, honest poor people only aggravates an already untenable situation. Send 'em all home will never happen. Nor, arguably, should it. But amnesty isn't the answer, either. Huge problem. So, let's make a few more laws...
-- 18:19, 18 September 2010 (BST)
Quotas is what I was thinking when I referred to anti-immigration laws. I don't know the status of the quota laws, but historically they ranged from the absurd (essentially unlimited Irish immigration because Kennedy was on the committee that wrote the quotas) to the racist (Yellow Peril, anyone?).
A quota anecdote from 70 years ago: When my mother's family emigrated from Trieste in 1939, my grandmother, who managed the logistics, had to get exit visas from the Austrians (for her, my grandfather and mother) and Italians (for my uncle, who was born there), and had to apply under three different quotas with the U.S. Consulate (she had been born in what was, at the time, Poland). It's a miracle they didn't all end up as lampshades and soap.
-- 21:53, 18 September 2010 (BST)
Ack! What a terrifying thought. My French mom came through Ellis Island with me (born in Heidelberg, Germany, American sector hospital, US GI father) and stood in line for hours. When she finally got to the front of the line, the officials told her she could have schlepped me right through ahead of everybody else, because... I was a US citizen! No signage, back then, informing aliens about such things.
No particular reason for this anecdote, just a kind of interesting story. When we visited Ellis Island a few years ago, it became all the more touching. We saw the pictures of immigrants from everywhere in the world, standing, waiting, piles of luggage everywhere. They've done a decent job of preserving the history of that place.
-- 16:32, 19 September 2010 (BST)
Not many legals are actually refused, and if they are, it's for cause, like felony records or communicable diseases.
I have to say, this is either desperately inaccurate or disingenuous.
See also: http://reason.com/blog/2008/09/24/new-at-reason-mike-flynn-shikh
-- 21:32, 23 September 2010 (BST)
Bunny42:
"...there's one reader here who differs notably from the majority of the rest of us on border policy in this country,..."
I'm thinking you mean me. I've not been silent about my feelings regarding enforcement of already-existing laws. Just last week I visited with some friends at my former place of employment, (formally known as U. S. Customs Service, now called, uh, Homeland Security.) They were lamenting the fact that they had detained some illegal aliens who were hiding on a yacht in the local marina, and no one in a position of authority, be it ICE, Border Patrol or anybody else would come and get the aliens and process them. It's always somebody else's problem. No one wants to take the heat and enforce EXISTING statutes. Eventually, someone somewhere was located who would take responsibility, but we all shook our heads in awe at the helplessness among Federal agents who were only trying to do their job, fer crying out loud.
So yeah, I probably see things differently from the majority of your readers. The problem of illegal immigrants in this country is vast and complex, but it started when the authorities stopped saying no, you can't come in unless you do it right. There's no longer any incentive not to jump the border, and the problem just gets bigger and bigger.
-- 01:14, 18 September 2010 (BST)