Eccentric Flower:200908/What Does It Mean

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«August 2009 «Eccentric Flower

What Does It Mean ...

... when the most reliable sources for news commentary that actually tells the truth in this country these days are satirical?

Onion:

"Both parties understand that the current system is broken," House Speaker Nancy Pelosi told reporters Monday. "But what we can't seem to agree upon is how to best keep it broken, while still ensuring that no elected official takes any political risk whatsoever. It’s a very complicated issue."

...

Though there remain irreconcilable points, both parties have reached some common ground in recent weeks. Senate leaders Harry Reid (D-NV) and Mitch McConnell (R-KY) point to Congress' failure to pass legislation before a July 31 deadline as proof of just how serious lawmakers are about stringing along the American people and never actually reforming the health care industry in any meaningful way.

"People should know that every day we are working without their best interests in mind," Reid said. "But the goal here is not to push through some watered-down bill that only denies health care to a few Americans here and a few Americans there. The goal is to recognize that all Americans have a God-given right to proper medical attention and then make sure there's no chance in hell that ever happens."

I'd be laughing if it wasn't true.

I said I wasn't going to write about health care again. But I can't get away from it. Everywhere I turn. No one is posting a lot of personal writing to distract me right now, and all the news/political commentary sites I read are just babbling about this endlessly.

Another forum I read has a very long-running health care argument going on, sustained by one person who is maintaining a radically different perspective from everyone else there and will not let it drop. I admire the man for sticking to his guns, but someone needs to point out to him that when the stoic, detached-to-the-point-of-comatose Dutchman wakes up from his coma to call you out, this is a sign you need to dial down.

Said Dutchman provided me this link: The Most Outrageous US Lies About Global Healthcare. In keeping with my non-partisan condemnation of this whole can of toxicity, I note that not all of those lies are right-wing ones.

I have already noted that no one on the national stage is asking the real question, the question "Why does our health care cost so much more than everyone else's?" We are not getting good value received, and until we work on that, the question reduces to "Who will pay the costs for our poor-value health care?" As I say, I think arguing about that point is less useful than solving the other issue, but everyone else seems to want to have the second argument.

The contention over at the other forum is that the gent in opposition really, really doesn't want the government to do this. He believes it is going to be an enormous boondoggle that is going to be even less efficient at providing healthcare than what we have now, and is going to cost us a ton of tax money to no great gain. He has a point.

But who do you trust more? Or, more precisely, in this context, who do you trust less? I don't trust my government as far as I can spit - but I've seen the track record for what the insurance companies do and I'm not impressed with that either. To say the least.

Let's consider this in bullet points.

INSURERS PAY.

PROS:

- Theoretically this is an incentive not to spend too much on raw health care costs. Doesn't seem to be working, though.

CONS:

- Massive bureaucracy.

- Insurers make money by, in essence, collecting fees from everyone but only paying costs for a small percentage of the people they collect cash from. Insurance is profitable only when a majority of the policies/clients do not involve outlay for the insurer a majority of the time. This means that, as a health care payer, insurers are in the business of not paying for health care as much as they possibly can. Do not ever forget this.

TAXPAYERS PAY.

PROS:

- Profit incentive removed. No good reason to deny healthcare to anyone.

- Possibility that usefulness-of-treatment decisions are unlinked from cost-of-treatment factors.

CONS:

- Massive bureaucracy.

- Will not lower raw health care costs. (Think defense contractors and $300 toilet seats.)

- Usefulness-of-treatment decisions become more obvious to those who were previously shielded from them.

Notice how I phrase that last bit. It's become clear that there is a sharp class divide in these discussions. To wit: If you have employer-backed health insurance and you have never seen its bad side - which means you are above a certain income level and have had steady employment for most of your working life, or are way above a certain income level and have never needed to care, then taxpayer-backed health care looks like a net loss to you. Suddenly, it seems, all the costs go up; suddenly someone else is making decisions about what health care you can get.

But this is illusory. In fact the costs have always been there. Ask someone who's paid for COBRA coverage or has had to self-insure. Ask an employer. As much as I hate the corporate complex, in this case they are not just crying crocodile tears: Subsidizing employee health care costs is breaking them. Not just small and midsize businesses either. Some very large ones are being slowly ground down by the costs of their health care obligations.

And the decisions about care have always been there too; they've just been taking place silently in the cogs of the infernal actuarial engine, where you don't find out about them until you fall on the wrong side of them. Better to get them out in the open, perhaps? Wouldn't you prefer to at least know the formula someone is using when they decide it is no longer a good idea to pay for a particular prescription of yours? And whose decisions do you think it will be easier to appeal? Government schemes, however flawed, do generally build in a complaint mechanism. The complaint mechanism for Kaiser Permanente is a courtroom you probably can't afford.

I suppose it's probably clear that I favor the government method - reluctantly. I don't trust them to do it right, but I think we have to remove the profit motive. Health care cannot be run as a for-profit business. It just doesn't work. The human cost is horrible, from untreated patients to overworked doctors.

But I also can't blame the people who don't want to pay for this with their taxes. Taxes are already high, and often it seems like we're not getting much value for our money. (See comments.) And I admit it: I'm not thrilled with the idea that I don't just pay for my own care under a government system; I pay little bits of your health care. In fact, in my case, I'd pay more towards yours than my own. I go to a doctor maybe once a year if forced at gunpoint. I have had one major hospitalization in my life. I am clearly not going to get value for money. My tax contribution is mostly going to go help someone else's health. And I'm not always charitable-minded enough to countenance that.

I can be a mean Republican. It's very easy to do. There are certainly days where I feel mad enough at the world to do it. There are certainly days when I'm like, "Well, if you can't pay for your own health care, tough luck; if you're a smoker, go die of emphysema somewhere; if you're obese, here's hoping for your swift heart attack; all you sick and poor people get the hell out of my road and off my lawn." There's some Darwinian appeal in that: Take care of your own health and pay your own way, or you don't deserve to be in the gene pool.

But.

Even the people who keep themselves healthy do have accidents sometimes. Things happen beyond our control. It seems wrong to penalize someone who Did Everything Right just because another car broadsided them, or because they happened to be in a room with a person who didn't know they had swine flu at a critical moment for contagion. Or because they wanted to have a baby! You would have to be a truly black-hearted Malthusian to argue there was a benefit to keeping the costs of having a hospital delivery so damned high.

Furthermore, the people who are sick and too poor to pay for it - which is becoming an alarmingly high number - do sometimes get sick enough that they can't ignore the problem. What do they do? Well, unless they live in the few places where somehow a free clinic has managed to thrive, they go to hospital emergency rooms. Gradually, in this country, ERs have become not just the place for urgent and traumatic care - which is their true role - but also de facto free clinics. ERs generally do not refuse treatment to anyone, even if that person is a walkup to an ER with the flu. This is slowly bleeding ERs to death.

And further furthermore, there is such a thing as social cost. If we all get the flu but two-thirds of us can't afford to go get drugs for it, then the collective effects of it, the time it takes us all to shake off this wave is greatly increased, and our ability to recuperate in time for the next wave is greatly diminished. We all get a little sicker. For want of a nail, etc.

(Another example: The resurgence of tuberculosis in New York City in recent years is partially attributable to drug-resistant strains, but a large additional factor was the closing or curtailment of public health facilities in that city. Once upon a time we knew that TB was everyone's problem. We seem to have forgotten that, and other lessons like it.)

In short, the problem with the harsh Darwinian argument is not just that it's harsh, but that there are Hidden Costs. You may want to sweep the under- and uninsured under the rug, but they don't stay swept. They don't vanish just because you've decided they're not worth the consideration, and eventually they will come back to haunt you in various ways.

Better, I think, to just deal with them in an aboveboard manner. Which means, yes, paying out some cash.

The problem is that it's so much cash. We pay more, and get less for it, than most of the other industrialized countries. Why the hell does it cost so much? I guarantee that reduction of raw costs would take a great deal of the anger out of this discussion. It's much easier to say to someone "please pay five dollars a month to help other people have health care" than to say "please pay fifty" or "please pay five hundred." Right now the numbers are high enough that I can, as I say, understand perfectly why people are getting so pissy.

Which is why I am so bewildered that no one is seriously discussing raw costs. Not even the Onion.


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Joy:

Your point about the Dutchman made me laugh out loud, which I practically never do. Hah!

-- 18:55, 20 August 2009 (BST)


Iain:

A bit of a digression:

Taxes are already high, and often it seems like we're not getting much value for our money.

For what it's worth: our taxes aren't high. They really really aren't. Compared to what other countries pay, or even to what we used to pay before Reagan and his cronies announced their battlecry of "Up the rich forever!" they're just not that bad. We've become increasingly unwilling to pay them, in part because politicians won't tell us what things really cost, and keep promising us the combined snake oils of "We won't raise taxes!" and "We'll cut the fat and keep taxes low!" (which usually means, "How can we screw the poor and middle class?")

You may want to sweep the under- and uninsured under the rug, but they don't stay swept. They don't vanish just because you've decided they're not worth the consideration, and eventually they will come back to haunt you in various ways.

Ah, but the key here is that they don't come back to haunt the people with the brooms, who are usually well off enough to stay away from the peons.

Honestly, I have nothing reasonable to contribute, only side kvetching about class issues. Though I think part of the issue is that class issues are, for a wonder, coming out to play in this debate -- which they rarely do here -- and people are terribly uncomfortable with that.

-- 19:00, 20 August 2009 (BST)


Joy:

Iain you're right of course about the absolute level of taxes. And I'm actually okay with having much higher taxes.

But, depending on where you live, the taxes can be brutal. On top of federal taxes, my state taxes are high, plus I have city taxes, and then also school district taxes. The latter two add up to the same amount I pay in state income tax, plus we have one of the higher sales taxes too.

I though I was paying a lot of tax living on long island - man am I taxed waaaay more here than there though. I'm grumpy about it at one level, but I still vote in favor of the increases, because of course I actually *can* afford it.

-- 19:54, 20 August 2009 (BST)


Columbina:

Iain, it was the latter clause of the sentence that was the key bit. I think we are not taxed all that ferociously in terms of raw numbers, but I think in terms of value received, we get less for our tax money than several other nations I could bring to mind.

Or, alternatively: I don't mind paying more taxes if you can assure me that, for once, the money will be well-spent.

As you point out, more candor about what things really cost and where the money's actually going would be a big step in the right direction.

I agree with you that for once the class issues are coming out and it's making people very uncomfortable/hot-headed. Good. It's about time we confronted some of these things.

-- 20:52, 20 August 2009 (BST)


Harmony:

My concern isn't so much the level of taxes -- I agree here with everyone to a point: our taxes seem high for what we get, we don't pay nearly as high a tax rate as many other civilized nations, and the cumulative effect of sales/property/state/local taxes can be quite a chunk -- as it is that I feel that our taxes aren't being used very efficiently and that no matter how low they get, people seem to clamor for lower taxes at the same time that they want increased services. You can't have it both ways. More services cost more money. California is figuring that out the really hard way, but we've all been affected. And the return on all of that investment sometimes looks like a pretty bad deal. Oregon's property taxes went up ~20 years ago to fund education. Now we still pay really high property taxes, as well as additional county and city levies off and on, and the schools in Portland are abysmal for what we pay. Teachers are trying hard and kids are getting educated, but the schools have a terrible reputation and the consensus is that the system is pretty well and screwed. Where the fuck did all that money go? We're paying more every year, and cutting more and more programs. It doesn't make sense.

When it comes to that, I *am* scared about the government managing a system like health care, because of these inefficiencies (are we going to end up with $300 thermometers like the Army has those $400 hammers and toilet seats?). But like I said in the forum thread, I am still willing to try something new, because the system we are in now takes our money and then tries to deny us care. A system that takes our money, uses it badly, but still treats us when we get sick, and is really available to everyone, is still a better deal.

-- 21:01, 20 August 2009 (BST)


Columbina:

I am still willing to try something new, because the system we are in now takes our money and then tries to deny us care. A system that takes our money, uses it badly, but still treats us when we get sick, and is really available to everyone, is still a better deal.

See, I should have let Harmony write my entry and she'd have gotten it down to one sentence.

-- 21:08, 20 August 2009 (BST)


Ursula:

The problem I have with a lot of conservatives, and particularly with their attitude toward health insurance reform, is that they connect A to B, and then stop there, failing to see (or refusing to admit) that there's a whole alphabet beyond that. "Universal health care would mean higher taxes! I'd be paying for poor people's health care! Nooooo!" Never mind human compassion, they can't see that the health care system we have now is such a disaster that it's destroying people's lives - not just the sick, but all the people AROUND the sick. They can't see how the insurance companies are totally ripping us all off. They can't get outside of their own thick skulls for ten seconds and see that why think of as using their taxes to "pay for poor people's health care" is a system that works for other countries, far better than our own system. It's like they're freaking children. And the insurance companies have managed to whip up a lot of "debate" in this country by spreading lies you'd have to be a child to believe. Palin says health care reform will lead to "death panels," and a lot of people hear that and just refuse to think it through any more. A has been connected to B in their minds. The end.

I recognize the risk of smugness when I go on like this. I don't think of myself as somebody who has the world figured out, and I don't like screaming about how stupid my countrymen are. But people are displaying a level of idiocy here that is Homer Simpson-esque, it's genuinely hard to believe. When Obama trots out this compromised, half-assed reform, and the Republicans manage to convince half the nation that he's a radical socialist... Holy fuck, let's just drop the nukes, already.

-- 00:00, 21 August 2009 (BST)


Ursula:

Arrgh. "They can't get outside of their own thick skulls for ten seconds and see that why think of as using their taxes..." Should be "that what they think of as using their taxes."

-- 00:03, 21 August 2009 (BST)


Mel:

I have already noted that no one on the national stage is asking the real question, the question "Why does our health care cost so much more than everyone else's?"

We are getting our information from different sources, for the most part, because in mine that question has been asked quite a lot. I haven't seen a completely convincing answer, but the question is definitely there.

-- 04:59, 21 August 2009 (BST)


Spc476:

A few comments to this: Where's my free food, clothes and housing? If free health care is a God-given right, then I would think food, clothing and housing is right there among them, for without any of those, then it doesn't matter how healthy you are, you won't be for long. And why single out health care?

Second thought: how much would you expect a general checkup, two dentist visits and two eye exams to cost? (which I think is the recommended minimum per year for those services) Got a figure? Good, multiply that by 300,000,000 (three hundred million). *THAT'S* your base-line yearly cost for health care nation wide (excluding prescriptions, emergencies, ongoing medical conditions, general sicknesses, Medicare, Medicade, Social Security, etc).

Third: why are the costs so high? I think I commented on this a bit in a previous post, but it seems to partly come down to, a lack of doctors, becoming a doctor is expensive, and insurance (malpractice adds to a doctor's cost, and general health insurance makes us immune to the true costs, which is why we're asking this in the first place).


-- 07:11, 21 August 2009 (BST)


Spc476:

Oh, and I would feel *so much better* if the Congresscritters were forced into whatever plan they pass for us mere non-politically connected peons.

-- 07:13, 21 August 2009 (BST)


Xeney:

I am pretty sure we already have $300 thermometers. We certainly have $50 Tylenol tablets.

-- 14:13, 21 August 2009 (BST)

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